Prop comics are automatically excluded. I'm talking people with real talent.

<ristoril> I felt the impulse to ponder, after hearing of the new Liberal Radio Network and Al Franken's impending show
<ristoril> are liberals more often humor-ish than conservatives?
<Lore> I've been thinking about that.
<Lore> I'm not convinced they are, but I think humor itself has a tendency to come across as liberal, because it tends to mock established institutions.
<Lore> In the same sense that when I do humor about D&D, a certain number of people assume I hate D&D, if you make fun of those in power, certain people will assume that you hate the powerful.
<ristoril> the only other thing I see liberals do more often than conservatives is ... not 'mock' ... their own stereotypes
<Lore> Not parsing.
<ristoril> some word that is like 'mock' but not 'mock'
<Lore> Oh. Like, "have fun with."
<ristoril> best example i can think of is the dave chappelle show where they pretend slave reparations went through and they show a line of blacks at a liquor store cashing their checks
<ristoril> yes, indulge in even
<Samwise> I can't say as I've seen lefties or righties with much of a sense of humor about their own stereotypical shortcomings
<ristoril> I hardly ever see conservatives take their stereotypes TO THE MAX for comedic purposes
<ristoril> but, again, possibly all in my head
<Samwise> do you ever see conservatives doing anything TO THE MAX?
<Samwise> And do you ever see them do things for comedic purposes? ASide from choose Quayle as running mate.
<zompist> i think the '60s lefties had a good sense of humor
<Samwise> today's lefties seem so... *angry*.
<ristoril> some of them, yes
<Samwise> Think it's a consequence of moving from dope to espresso
<ristoril> like Franken, i think he's actually pissed.
<zompist> yah, anger doesn't always translate into good comedy
<ristoril> but like John Stewart... I think he's bemused
<AliasN> Jon
<Samwise> thank you alias
<ristoril> John, Jon, Fag, whatever
<agent_orange> well, also, in the 60's, it ... it ... I forgot
<Lore> I think that people who come out and say "I have <political affiliation>. Here are some jokes." tend to come across as strident.
<Samwise> I like lewis black's humor. I can't tell what his political affiliation is.
<Lore> And my experience is that those who do so are mostly liberals in the Tom Tomorrow vein.
<ristoril> Samwise: Asshole party
<ristoril> although I agree with everything he says
<ristoril> (almost)
<Lore> It was interesting to hear Lorne Michaels point out that some of the original SNL writers were republicans.
<AliasN> *you're* calling Jon Stewart a fag?
<ristoril> well, he does spell John without an 'h'
<Lore> But, I dunno. Whenever I hear that Dianne Feinstein or Joe Lieberman wants to ban the word "asshole" within a mile of schools, I think to myself "They're not real liberals."
<Lore> But I know a lot of people are thinking "typical liberals."
<ristoril> I end up thinking "they're not real liberals" about a lot of "liberals"
<Samwise> well, there's a disparity between the original meaning and the political meaning
<ristoril> yeah, that's why sam
<Samwise> maybe that's where the rift is from
<ristoril> it bugs me
<Lore> I dunno.
<Lore> I don't think my definition is either the original or current one.
<Lore> It may just be a personal one. "People like me."
<Samwise> ah. So you're off in your own little world. Again.
<Lore> Whee!
<Lore> I'm trying to figure that out, though.
<Lore> The whole political correctness thing bugs the shit out of me. Which is to say, the ubiquity of the term bugs the shit out of me.
<Lore> Like the idea that there are certain things you don't way, certain ideas you can't express without social censure, was invented in 1983.
<Lore> I was hoping the crashing irony of Bill Maher's downfall would bring it to a halt, but there you go.
<ristoril> There's a lot about the current political climate that upsets me, in my Democratic gland
<ristoril> as in "the political system" not "the political party"
<Lore> Lowercase d, then.
<Lore> I've been reading the AP style guide.
<ristoril> good, now i can at least be typographically correct in my expression of my angst
<Lore> Would you say The Onion is liberal?
<ristoril> hm, sorry
<ristoril> I don't know. they made a good lot of fun of the clinton administration
<ristoril> but it seems like the fun they make of the current admin is more politically pointed
<ristoril> instead of the clinton years "isn't this wacky"
<ristoril> so i'd say they're probably liberal
<Lore> Would you say The Simpsons is liberal?
<Freyja> conservatives usually don't tend to poke fun at themselves, so liberal it must be
<Lore> I'm not getting at anything here, I'm just interested.
<ristoril> I think they're just counter-culture... as much as they can be
<ristoril> when you consider they're an integral part of our culture
<ristoril> i don't get the feeling that they're going for socio-political commentary as much as just social commentary
<Freyja> and I don't think we're talking strictly in terms of politics, here
<zompist> if the kurt luchs who works at the onion is the same writer & humorist i once knew, he's massively conservative
<Lore> I should be clear, I'm asking about the end products, not necessarily the writers.
<Lore> Okay, how about South Park?
<ristoril> liberal
<Freyja> definitely.
<Lore> Heh.
<ristoril> I think they hit all the liberal hot boxes
<ristoril> anti-corp
<Leth> well
<Samwise> True, but they take some vicious swipes at homeopathy
<Samwise> isn't that a big hippie thing?
<Freyja> just because something makes fun of liberal ideas doesn't mean it doesn't have a liberal voice
<Leth> I also think that shows like that are aimed at a demographic that is traditionally liberal, too
<ristoril> i dunno, i just have hippie hair
<Lore> It may interest you to know that a lot of conservatives consider South Park their comedic voice.
<ristoril> no way heh
<Freyja> because they get it all wrong
<Leth> They also believe in The Bible, too
<Lore> Yeah, the phrase "South Park conservative" has even been coined.
<bob> i remember reading that parker and stone were republicans
<bob> vicious lie?
<Samwise> I of course am not allowed to like south park that much
<Leth> or yummy fish?
<ristoril> I have to find these people
<Freyja> much like the childfree hailing that one simpson episode as their voice, they didn't get the point
<Samwise> since they're on the wrong side of the border.
<bob> wait. aren't they canucks?
<Samwise> no, they're *coloradan*.
<Lore> Do a search on "south park conservative" or "south park republican" for more info.
<Lore> Or visit your local library!
<Leth> I can see that, though. The most popular character is pretty Conservative
<Lore> One more question: King of the Hill, liberal or conservative?
<ristoril> man i'm having trouble wrapping my mind around that
<Freyja> why are we equating conservative and republican?
<Leth> er, not popular, featured maybe
<Samwise> Coloradans and Nebraskans get along like... uhm... Furries and Normal People
<ristoril> how could conservatives be... cool enough... to like southpark
<Samwise> rist: so, conservative and cool are mutually exclusive to you
*** ristoril has been kicked off channel #spinnwebe by Freyja (making too much noise in an otherwise interesting conversation)
<Lore> Well, I think that's why the term was coined. It means, more or less, "conservatives who have a sense of humor."
<Lore> "Conservatives who RAWK." Something like that.
<bob> joe lieberman?
<ristoril> i'd say King of the Hill is pretty neutral
<Samwise> maybe that's why there are conservatives who think SP is conservative; because no one that cool could be liberal
<Lore> Possibly "Libertarians who want the government to build roads."
<ristoril> i mean, the subjects of the show are very conservative
<ristoril> but they tend to be put up against liberalizing situations
<Leth> Mike Judge is pretty conservative in general
<Samwise> Well, for a texan, he's flamin' librull.
<Leth> well sure Sam
<Lore> Well, what got me off on this a while back was a Lileks article.
<Lore> He was asking whether conservatives or liberals have more fun.
<Leth> bah
<Leth> define fun
<ristoril> sam, not mutually exclusive, but if i had to choose to be around a raging consie and a raging lib, I'd choose the lib
<Samwise> for that matter, define conservatives and liberals.
<Lore> And my instinctive answer was "Liberals, of COURSE. DUH!"
<zompist> fun = hanging out on irc and making fun of tards
<Leth> ooohhh, rist....
<Samwise> whoa, doggie, don't change the focus there
<Leth> I dunno
<ristoril> leth, *raging*
<ristoril> not vehement
<Leth> you have never been to Harvard Square, have you
<ristoril> vehements are fun
<Freyja> political leanings have no impact on your ability to have fun.
<Leth> at least raging conservatives use soap
<ristoril> ragers won't shut up for 3 seconds so you can get a word in
<Lore> But he painted this image, in words, of a liberal who just sits at home and fumes about how people are out there POLLUTING THE ENVIRONMENT and NOT RESPECTING NATIVE CULTURE."
<Freyja> this is like the "does being smart stop you from having fun" debate.
<Samwise> I'm specifically pointing out that you beg the question by your "conservative => !cool" assumption
<ristoril> oh man, i hav met some DEPRESSING liberals
<zompist> this is starting to sound like ammp's attack on us smahrt pioples who don't know how to have fun
<Freyja> the two things have nothing to do with one another
<Lore> Which was basically analogous to my internal image of a conservative who sits at home fuming about how people are HAVING ANAL SEX and ABUSING DRUGS.
<bob> they're only abusing them if they aren't enjoying them.
<Leth> heh, this is why I tend to, when asked, describe myself as a moderate who dresses a little to the left
<Samwise> Certainly, the more batshit elements always seem to never have any fun - people take you less seriously if you're less serious
<Leth> Sam: but you get to have so much FUN with the batshit folks
<Lore> Actually, I don't think that's it, Sam.
<Leth> case in point: DML
<zompist> dml has a political point of view?
<Leth> nonono he's batshit
<Samwise> Whether cause or consequence, it's certainly reinforcing.
<ristoril> it might be that I just respond more to liberal humor, and so deduce that liberals must be more fun, while conservative humor just whizzes by me or makes me angry, so i think they aren't
<bob> yeah... i had fun with those scientologists i ran into, but it was more having fun at them than with them
<Lore> I think that people like to think that the batshit elements, where "batshit" is defined according to their personal beliefs, don't have fun.
<Samwise> Ah... I'm defining "batshit" as "extreme"
<Leth> This gets back to defining the word "fun"
<Lore> I'm sure separatist lesbians, PETA activists, and holy rollers have all sorts of fun, it's just not the sort of fun we'd have.
<Leth> """""fun""""""
<Freyja> fun is so subjective, throwing dead fetuses at teenage girls who made a mistake might be fun to a screaming fundie
<Samwise> holy rollers don't have fun.
<Leth> sure they do
<Samwise> even by their definition
<Leth> "throes of ecstasy"
<ristoril> of course they have fun. it's fun making pipe bombs for abortion clinics and cosmetic labs
<Lore> Sam: Christian rock.
<Samwise> you *read* about throes of ecstasy.
<Samwise> Christian rock is not fun.
<Leth> to you
<Lore> Christian rock is fun to Christians.
<zompist> you can't have fundamentalism without fun!
<Samwise> to humans
<Leth> beheh dammit mark
<Leth> stop that
<ristoril> my cousins are human, and for some reason they enjoy Christ Rox
<Lore> Some Christians, I should say.
<ristoril> and Christian Rap, bluegrass, country...
<Lore> "You just change 'Jesus' to 'baby.'"
<Leth> "Christ Rox"
<Leth> ......
<Samwise> So, since we have a purely subjective view of exactly what fun is, how can we say who has more of it?
<zompist> christians are a mixed bag-- some are humorless, some are quite fun. heck, vice pope doug was a christian, iirc
<Lore> It could be personally defined.
<Freyja> we cannot. Which is my point
<Lore> If you think you're having fun, you are.
<Leth> who asked you, froggie
* Samwise pitches his tent in Freyja's camp
* ristoril is happy and he knows it.
<Leth> see? fun for me, not for freyja
* ristoril claps his hands.
*** ristoril has been kicked off channel #spinnwebe by Leth (stomp your feet)
<zompist> maybe the interesting question is, can consies create the kind of humor that would appeal to this channel?
<ristoril> so frey and sam you think it's not possible to say whether liberals or conservatives are generally more funny than one another, more apt to be humorous to others?
<Lore> I think there's a general rhetorical tendency to ascribe a burning obsession to those you disagree with.
<zompist> as opposed to, say, the family circus?
<Samwise> whoah, when did we go from fun to funny?
<Freyja> not at all. I said fun, not funny
<ristoril> oh
<ristoril> i thought we started with funny
<Freyja> it's impossible to determine which side has more fun. However, I think liberals are funnier
<Lore> Like, if you hate LARPers, you prefer to see them as people obsessed with their cloaks and ankhs 24/7, rather than people who throw on an outfit once in a while.
<Freyja> why? Cause they can poke fun at themselves in ways consies cannot
<Lore> "Can" or "do"?
<Freyja> both.
<zompist> well, obsession *is* funny
<Lore> Are you saying that conservativism precludes self-mockery, or that they just decide not to?
<zompist> and silly. so it's more fun to see your opponents as obsessed.
<Lore> Which makes sense in the context of humor, but not in the context of serious assessment.
<Freyja> well, I hate to throw in absolutes, because I'd be proved wrong in no time I'm sure.
<Samwise> Plus, which party is trendier in the entertainment industry?
<ristoril> I think conservatives in general see self mockery as "hurting" themselves
<Lore> Just to throw some more on the fire, a lot of libertarians seem to feel that libertarians are the funniest.
<ristoril> tearing their self image down.
<Samwise> I know, I know, people will follow their hearts about their party, but please. Entertainers change sexuality based on its hipness, why wouldn't they change their politics for the same reason?
<Leth> well, by pure definition, I'd agree. Conservatives need to support the status quo, while liberals, seeking change, tend to mock themselves and the status quo
<ristoril> I'm projecting, of course, but it's the sense I get
<zompist> i'd put it this way: having a bug up your ass precludes anarchic humor. consies have had a bug up their ass for 40 years and still have it when they're in power. liberals are getting there, though.
<Leth> plus, those damned Jews
<ristoril> maybe it's people who feel oppressed? i think liberals feel oppressed fairly often
<ristoril> in my lifetime anyway
<Samwise> Oy, vhat do you know vfrom vfunny
<Lore> Then there's the subtle dividing line between editorial humor and non-editorial humor.
<ristoril> I know jews can be funny as hell
<zompist> fwiw, extremists and crackpots do have their own form of humor, if you call it that-- sarcasm and verbal abuse.
<Leth> hey now
<ristoril> that's what this guy i asked about it earlier today said, 'conservative humor tends to be attack humor, directed outside'
<Leth> those are two of my mainstays
<zompist> well then, you suck
<Leth> I'm no extremist
<Lore> Oh, yeah, like we DON'T think you're a goatfucker.
<ristoril> whereas liberals tend to direct their humor inward
<Leth> yeah, SNL is very self-effacing humor
<Samwise> rist: of course, that can be considered an accusation...
<zompist> it's not limited to them, leth. but i've dealt with a lot of crackpots, and they're all masters of sarcasm
<Leth> I posit that just about all political humor is attack humor
<ristoril> it's gonna be seen as an attack by somebody
<Leth> unless you're Hilary Clinton, then it's fun with Injuns
<Leth> by definition, it HAS to be an attack
<ristoril> well
<ristoril> did you ever see the episode of the dave chappelle show
<Leth> because politically motivated humor is a satirization or belittling of faults
<ristoril> where they were making fun of the slave reparations thing?
<Lore> I'm not following the definition of attack humor.
<Leth> oh, you can attack your own side
<Lore> I'm parsing it as humor that's intended to say "this is wrong and bad."
<Lore> Which is different from saying "this is funny and amusing."
<Leth> I consider humor that parodies an opposing viewpoint (Will Ferrel's GWB, et al) a form of attack humor
<Lore> Although the latter is frequently mistaken for the former.
<ristoril> well what they were doing was taking a stereotype they felt is held by conservatives (and also feel is silly) and applying it to a political thing of the day
<Leth> well sure, it's not a direct confrontation, but if it's a politically motivated satire, it's meant to dimish that point of view
<ristoril> hrm. could be.
<Leth> Lewis Black doesn't just go up and say things are wrong and bad, he combines them both. I consider his stuff attacking the opposing view. Which in his case is either "conservatives" or "morons", not always the same thing either
<Lore> Hrm.
<Leth> I, being of a similar viewpoint, find him funny. My mother thinks hje's a punk
<ristoril> well he's a fine example of your point, though, because his humor is in being angry, or seeming angry
<ristoril> it's easy to conflate anger and attack
<Samwise> Eh, he'd be nearly as funny if he were just hyper
<ristoril> because, a lot of the time, they go hand in hand
<Lore> Hmm.
<Leth> David Cross is another example of that
<Samwise> Where does carrot top fit in?
<Leth> so is David Duke. That fucker is funny
<ristoril> a hole
<Samwise> besides tie's girlfriend
<Leth> Prop comics are automatically excluded. I'm talking people with real talent
<Lore> I can't help but feel there's a value in distinguishing between humor that makes fun of something because it's funny, and that points out flaws in something in order to argue that it should not be.
<ristoril> well, like Jon Stewart on the Daily Show. He doesn't say "this is stupid" or "consies suck"
<zompist> whyzzat, lore?
<Leth> How is that not a form of attacking it though?
<Samwise> rist: I disagree; he says things are stupid all the time
<Leth> yeah, bad example there rist
<ristoril> The problem is that conservatives most well-known 'comedian' is Ann Coulter
<Leth> ahh
<zompist> do consies think she's *funny*?
<ristoril> they think she's *hilarious*
<ristoril> and *correct*
<Leth> no, she does not consider herself a comedian. She is funny to you, however, because you see her views as ludicrous
<Samwise> See, I put her with the *crackpot* group
<Lore> Zomp: I guess because I feel there's a value in distinguishing things that are distinct, and I see them as such.
<ristoril> you sure, leth?
<Lore> Not entirely separate, often overlapping, but two different things.
<zompist> lore: can you give an example? i'm not seeing why the distinction is important
<ristoril> because... i mean... she's serious?
<Leth> when she does stand-up, come back and talk to me
<Samwise> and I think it's quite a stretch to characterize consies as agreeing 100% with her
<Leth> Bill Maher's show is not stand-up
<ristoril> well it's a stretch to say any group agrees 100% with any one member of their group
<Leth> Coulter is like Limbaugh and Nugent. Extremism for the sake of attention whoring
<Samwise> <ristoril> they think she's *hilarious*
<Samwise> <ristoril> and *correct*
<zompist> i agree with sam; but if you're a partisan, someone making an exaggerated point in the direction of your own side can be funny.
<ristoril> but by and large conservatives (people who label themselves as such and not "moderates")
<Lore> Well, with Clinton there was a lot of humor that was just saying "He's a horndog," without seemingly taking a stand on whether it's inappropriate to have a horndog president.
<ristoril> think she's correct in her characterizations of liberals as America-hating neo-terrorists
<bob> i don't think coulter's task is attention whoring at all, but that's for another day
<Samwise> uh, no.
<Lore> And then there was a lot of humor, on both the left and right side, actively making the point that he is in one way or another a failure as a president.
<Freyja> wait, bob?
<Freyja> how is she not whoring for attention?
<Samwise> rist gets the *fweeet* of Talking Out Of Your Ass
<Freyja> please be specific, cause you're dead wrong
<bob> no, this is really interesting, and although i've got nothing to say about it, i don't want to derail it
<Lore> Who's wrong? Me, bob, or rist?
<Lore> Or all of us, in our own special way?
<Freyja> ok, come to #bobiswrong and we'll talk
<ristoril> ok, conservatives I have regular interactions with who are conservative and proud
<bob> put it in your palmpilot for friday when we're all bored
<Leth> Lore: I'm not sure how that distinguishes itself from not fitting into my classifying it all as attack humor
<Samwise> who's that?
<Lore> Leth: not parsing.
<Samwise> WAIT A FUCKING MINUTE
<Leth> Maybe I misunderstood you, but you were saying that my generalization was wrong because it's not necessarily a form of attack humor
<Leth> shut up sam
<Samwise> everyone's got someone to argue with, and I'm stuck with RIST?
<Leth> yeah, we gave you the easy argument this time
<Samwise> christ
<ristoril> sam feels bad beating cripples, though
<Leth> better than taking them home and fucking them, but that's neither here nor there either
<Lore> I'm saying that it's valuable to distinguish between "Clinton's a fat horndog" jokes and "Clinton is lying and should be impeached" jokes, whether or not you use the term "attack humor" for the latter.
<Leth> oh, ok, I thought you were saying I was wrong
<Lore> It's like saying that because humans are animals, everything is nature.
<Leth> I take execption to that, because I'm not
<Lore> It's a fair point, but then what do you call what's usually called "nature"?
<Leth> a high level classification
<Samwise> Lore, I think the line there is incredibly thin
<ristoril> i call "human nature" an easy cop out
<Lore> Oh, I don't even think it's a line. It's a big fat blur.
<Samwise> Though I agree such a classification is useful, I don't see it being feasible
<Freyja> again, I'm in camp sam. I also don't think the line matter
<zompist> sounds like the distinction between parody and satire
<Freyja> s
<Leth> you can sub-categorize it all you want, but it still comes down to political humor by its very nature is a form of attack
<zompist> in theory, satire always has a moral point, while parody doesn't
<Leth> and I'm getting tired of the big fat blur jokes, I'm just a bit large
<Samwise> i.e., Weird Al = parody
<Leth> oh, sorry, you didn't mean me and gravtiational distortion there
<Samwise> sorry Leth, you've been outweighed of late
<Samwise> and not by my not-quite-as-fat ass
<ristoril> I've been told I'm so dense that space and time bend around me
<Leth> actually, you'll be disappointed to hear I've been losing weight lately, but a topic for a different day
<ristoril> so, maybe it's teh case that liberals and conservatives attack each other equally
<ristoril> but that liberals choose humor more often?
<Samwise> you back on this side of 3 bells?
<Lore> Maybe it's internal. If I wanted to Denounce Everquest I would have written a very different article from the one I wrote Making Fun of Everquest.
<Lore> I really don't see myself as "attacking Everquest," although people have accused me of it.
<Leth> very nearly, Sam
<zompist> how does an outsider tell? it's sounding like intent, now.
<ristoril> HAEV U EVEN PLAEYD THE GAME?!
<Leth> IM GONA REPORT U
<Lore> It's like, yeah a pie in the face and a punch in the nose are both assault, but that doesn't mean they're the same thing.
<ristoril> that's probably another problem, zomp, in trying to define/categorize
<Samwise> rist, most of the humor we've been discussing is by professional comedians. Do you think there's a slight tendancy for liberal bias among entertainers/celebrities?
<Leth> heh, I use DML classifying me as a neo-Nazi as a prime example of people "not getting it"
<ristoril> which might have lead me to believe that *all* conservatives agree with Ann Coulter, which Sam points out is false
<Lore> You're not a Neo-Nazi?
<Leth> nah
<Leth> I'm the real thing baby
<ristoril> proto?
<Lore> Old skool, huh?
<Leth> THERE IS NO FOURTH REICH, ONLY ZUUL
<ristoril> Samwise: that's the popular line. It's probably true, too
<Leth> eh
<Leth> it used to be
<ristoril> but there are a good number of outspoken conservative actors/entertainers
<Freyja> a punch in the nose isn't intended to be funny, though. In humor, the line is not nearly that clear
<Freyja> and it doesn't matter nearly as much
<Samwise> ah, but are they comics?
<ristoril> no, not often
<Leth> Sam: do you consider Howard Stern to be a comic?
<Samwise> I rephrase
<Samwise> are they *funny*
<Leth> even better
<Leth> Sam: do you consider Howard Stern to be a comic?
<Lore> I think you're driving the metaphor in a direction I didn't intend.
<zompist> it's hard to do friendly humor... it's almost always criticism of some type. even bil keane is pointing out kids' stupidity.
<Leth> hmmm
<Freyja> as you said, mocking everquest and attacking everquest became the same thing to some of your audience. It's not the author of the joke that draws the line, it's the audience
<Leth> No, I don't think that's his intent though zomp
<Samwise> the question then becomes, do funny people/celebrities become liberal, or do liberals become funny?
<Freyja> so making a distinction becomes pointless
<Lore> So anything that people can misunderstand is what they misunderstand it as?
<ristoril> I'm liberal, so that knocks out the latter choice
<Freyja> because what's a fat horny clinton joke to you could very well be an attack on clinton for someone else
<Leth> Frey: zactly. That's what I was saying with the 'target audience' bit earlier
<Lore> If someone tells Leth he's a jew-hater, then there's no way to draw a line between him and an actual Jew-hater?
<Leth> when it's accepted as humor, it becomes thus
<Samwise> Why is there not equal representation of funny across the political spectrum? Is it entirely based on your personal definition of "funny" being colored by your political stance?
<Leth> pfft, you'd have to walk all the way around me to draw that line
<ristoril> "and on this side, I ain't gay"
<zompist> gah, i think the discussion has been abstracted to the point it's meaningless. can you name five really funny conservatives?
<Lore> I mean, people often mistake my humor articles for serious articles. Does that mean the distinction between humor and serious commentary is useless?
<Freyja> that's not what we're talking about, though
<Samwise> Not off the top of my head, no... why is that?
<Lore> I don't know the politics of most comedians.
<ristoril> Freyja: that happens mostly with the raving people who don't actually arrive at their positions in a thought out manner
<Leth> no, but if enough people take you seriously, is it comedy anymore?
<Freyja> we're not making the difference between editorial and editorial humor
<Lore> For all I know, Steve Purcell is a raging republican.
<Samwise> heheheh
<Samwise> True, boners.
<Freyja> we're making the difference between just regular ha-ha funny humor and editorial humor
<jacquilynne> I think Dennis Miller is a conservative. I'm not sure if he's funny, though.
<Leth> ....
<Lore> But you're still making the argument that if a portion of my audience can't tell the difference, the difference doesn't matter.
<ristoril> I can help, jac: no
<ristoril> I think you're trying to draw an absolute out of a generality, lore
<Leth> oh, no, I'm not saying that, what I'm *asking* is if people do not take it as comedy, is it humor?
<Lore> Let's put it a different way. Let's say I write two articles and 70% of my audience can tell the difference between me savaging EQ and having fun with it. Does that mean the distinction DOES matter?
<ristoril> actually out of a specific case, that in which the small portion of your audience doesn't "get it"
<Samwise> So, the question remains: is there some logical disconnect between being funny and being conservative, or is it entirely subjective, such that there are people who think that no liberal is funny?
<Lore> I don't think I'm trying to draw any absolutes, just broad generalizations.
<Leth> I'm way too sober to be having this discussion
<ristoril> "the difference doesn't matter" is an absolute, it hink
<Samwise> Yeah, I usually need 3-4 beers before I can solve the world's problems
<zompist> sam: there *may* be a semi-objective way to tell... if you can take out the only-funny-to-partisans stuff and the guy's still funny
<Samwise> OK. Rist, get on that.
<ristoril> If you could find a "moderate" and get him to agree something is friendly then it's funny
<ristoril> uhh
<Leth> these are the kinds of discussions we used to have after a couple of the stand-up shows at the bar across the street from the studio
<ristoril> funny then it's funny
<ristoril> what kinda beers do you guys drink?
<ristoril> i'll pick some up on the way home
<Leth> if you take out the funny-only-to-partisans, is his humor still considered to be partisan
<Freyja> I'm going back to what leth said. Political humor is attack humor, whether you meant it to be or not.
<Leth> otherwise it becomes Bob Saget on TV
<ristoril> I think you'd have to take the partisan out of the audience, not out of the humor
<Lore> This reminds me of how I decided whether Mallard Fillmore is funny.
<zompist> by not laughing?
<Leth> beheh
<Samwise> by reading it?
<Lore> Some of the strips don't involve politics.
<Freyja> the difference, in your point of view as an author, will not matter to your audience if they decide you were on the offensive with that particular joke.
<Lore> Well, no. I was willing to entertain the thought that I was blinded by my own liberalism.
<Samwise> always a safe assumption
<Lore> Frey: I believe the difference manifests itself in my writing. The fact that some people don't see it notwithstanding.
<Leth> Do I have time to jsut point out I object to using the word "objective" to determine whether something is funny or not
<Lore> So I just looked at the occasional strip that doesn't involve politics.
<ristoril> no, sorry, there isn't time. now on to Luten.
<zompist> man, lore, don't stretch out the story over one line, this is confusing enough to follow as it is.
<Lore> Taken as a whole, I came to the conclusion that Mallard Fillmore is approximately as funny as "Shoe."
<Lore> Crappy interface. If I type too much, I can't see where I started.
<Leth> I kind of liked "Shoe" but mainly because I identified with the Professor character as being exactly like a friend of mine
<Freyja> is there such a thing as "objectively funny"?
<Leth> no
<Lore> No, not at all.
<zompist> agto is objectively funny
<Leth> not at all
<Lore> I also don't think there's a thing as "subjectively ironic."
<Lore> Apropos of nothing.
<Lore> Well. Apropos of Alanis.
<Leth> I don't think there is any value to the phrase "apropos of nothing" too
<Leth> so neener
<Lore> It's shorter than "Not that we were discussing that issue."
<Lore> Although longer than "I like to talk."
<Leth> and "Hey! Fudge!"
<Lore> You know, I think another way of saying what I'm trying to say is "All humor is attack humor, but some is attackier than others."
<Leth> ok, I'll accept that
<Lore> Yay! Consensus!
<zompist> i'm trying to decide if the partisanship *can* be removed from humor. i think so-- humor that depends on saying "bush is a dickface" is never going to be funny to consies. but i don't think that's the only kind of political humor.
<Lore> I think that humor generally plays with facts that you have to accept to get the humor.
<Samwise> And "non-attack humor" is merely what you perceive as harmlessly-attacky.
<Leth> zomp: I always considered Twain to be a great example of non-partisan political humor
<zompist> hmm. maybe 'cos he gives the impression of attacking everyone. like agto. but they both had convictions, too.
<Leth> well, non-partisan in that he was just "me" versus "You fucks"
<Lore> Actually, I should say "all political humor." I don't think puns are generally attack humor.
<Samwise> they're abuse humor
<Leth> they feel like it sometimes though
<Leth> fuck
<Lore> Unless you think that you're attacking the word "halibut."
<Leth> you win sam
<Lore> Which some people in the halibut industry probably do.
<zompist> ok, another try. if you can remove the namecalling and still say "that's funny" or "he has a point", then it's not just partisan humor.
<Lore> I'm probably more facinated by this topic than the rest of you.
<zompist> i don't think it works with mallard fillmore; i think it does with doonesbury.
<Lore> I think I'll try to make a non-attacking political joke.
<Lore> Just for grins.
* zompist sits attentively, hand on the buzzer
* Samwise prepares to rate this 'joke'
<Leth> ...
<Lore> Well, I'm not saying it's going to be a good one.
<Samwise> A wolly jumper!
<zompist> BZZZT oh wait you didn't start yet
<Lore> Here's one I've actually heard.
<Lore> "Bush and Quayle" sounds like a British pub.
<Freyja> you're saying they're drunks, AREN'T YOU?!?!?!
<Leth> where's the politicalness?
<Leth> mentioning politicians' names doesn't make it not a play on words or whatever you want to call it
<Lore> Well, Bush and Quayle are politicians.
<Lore> It can be both.
<Leth> I disagree
* Leth throws the consensus in the toilet
<Lore> Sounds like a tautology then.
<Lore> "Political humor is humor that attacks politicians."
<Leth> actually I'm just being a dick there. It's a gray area
<Lore> "All political humor is attack humor."
<Leth> nono politically motivated humor
<Leth> sorry
<Lore> Well, the thing that saves the consensus is the "almost."
<Freyja> how would you define political humor, then?
<Lore> What's politically motivated humor.
<jacquilynne> I'm not sure that political humour and politician humour are necessarily the same thing.
<Leth> It's I'm too tired and need to go home. Shit. We shall finish this later
<Lore> Heh.
<Lore> Well, fair enough.
<Samwise> can I play Asshole while he's gone?
*** SIGNOFF: Leth (Quit: plus, you all suck. But in a non-attacking way)
<Lore> Asshole: The Wacky Doctor Game!
<Freyja> like Operation, but with only one buzzing hole
<Freyja> but still: what is political humor?
<jacquilynne> Isn't asshole a card game?
<Freyja> because I want to make sure I was arguing about the right thing
<Samwise> Uhm... all I can come up with is that just making fun of the names isn't political.
<Freyja> agreed
<Samwise> because you could apply it to non-politicians so easily? Is that what changes it?
<Samwise> political humor is humor that wouldn't work on non-politicians?
<Lore> Hrm.
<Lore> By that definition, "Clinton is a fat horndog" isn't political, either.
<Lore> Which I actually kind of see.
<Samwise> *shrug* just throwing it out there.
<Freyja> no, because the clinton you're talking about there is the president.
<jacquilynne> I think political humour has to involve ideology at some point, or it's really just famous person humour.
<Freyja> bush and quayle in that other joke could just be two blokes you work with
<jacquilynne> Yeah, or two guys who starred in a movie together.
<Freyja> but there's only the one clinton fucking interns, and he's the prez
<Lore> Clinton was NOT the only intern-fucking Clinton.
<Lore> Hell, there's a Clinton here who....
<Lore> Never mind.
<Lore> Let's try a specific joke. "Did you hear Clinton starved to death? They put him halfway between Britney Spears and a box of french fries."
<Lore> Political or no?
<Samwise> hmmm
<Samwise> I think most people would say political, just because the target is a politician
<Lore> I'd have to say that most people would be fine seeing the Bush and Quayle joke on a political humor mailing list, though.
<Samwise> that the joke is about *him*, and what he's done, might be what separates it from semantics with bush & quayle's names.
<zompist> this really gets scholastic. you could make a similar joke about michael jackson (small boy, nose surgeon). but i can imagine a consie delivering it in a speech to heat up the partisans.
<Samwise> Part of the problem is probably that no one else gives a shit about when a joke is officially political humor
<Lore> Heh. Point taken.
<Lore> Or if it's officially attacking humor, for that matter.
<Lore> Nearly the whole of humor definitions are a "I know it when I sees it" sort of thing.
<zompist> i think there's some constants
<Lore> As is, for that matter, the distinction between humor and non-humor.
<zompist> but not enough to make it easy to create humor
<Lore> K words.
<Lore> K words, jews and penises.
<Lore> The only three constants of humor.
<Samwise> farts
<Samwise> farts have always been funny
<zompist> part of humor, i think, is breaking rules. the "you can't say that!" reaction is part of the funny.
<zompist> also, waterfowl, but not when talked about by nebraskans
<Samwise> also, zomp's lips, but only when they encircle my schlong
<Lore> Maybe it's just that the rule that raisins are never funny outweighs the rule that ducks are always funny.
<Samwise> raisins are never funny?
<Samwise> surely, there are raisin jokes everyone likes
<Lore> I'm just postulating here.
<zompist> uh... YEAH, sam
<zompist> (don't get him thinking of jokes)
<Lore> "Did you hear that Clinton starved to death? They put him halfway between Britney Spears and a box of raisins."
<raven> Was a duck involved?
<Lore> "Even if it doesn't, I get to put raisins on the cat's forehead."
<Lore> Maybe that's why we never make fun of Raven. It sounds too much like "raisin."
<Samwise> Hear about the raisin that cheated on his wife?
<Samwise> It made the paper, current affairs section
<raven> Ah, we've moved on to puns. I can close the log now.
<Freyja> googling for "raisin joke" is reinforcing that theory. "Is yours raisin too" "no, but it's starting to quiver". Indeed.
<Freyja> I wonder if it extends to all dried fruit.
<Lore> I think we may have hit upon a hidden truth.
<Samwise> yeah.
<zompist> huh. kinda surprised google didn't just give you sam's photo
<Lore> No, I think "Craisins" are pretty funny.
<Samwise> Why did the raisin go out with the prune?
<Samwise> Because he couldn't find a date!
<Lore> Hrm..."Britney spears and a box of dried apricots."
<Lore> That wins point for surreality.
<Lore> I think it's just raisins.
<Lore> YOUR RAISIN A SPLODED
<Lore> Fascinating.
<Freyja> they were spoiled forever by those damned dancing raisins.
<Lore> Does this mean that making fun of Sam for talking about raisins isn't funny?
<Lore> Or are meta-raisin jokes okay?
<Freyja> A man stormed into Moishe's Bakery and confronted Moishe.
<Freyja> "Do you know what happened to me?" he demanded. "I found a fly in the raisin bread I bought from you yesterday."
<Freyja> Moishe gave a palms-up shrug and replied, "Nu, so you'll bring me the fly and I'll give you a raisin."
<Freyja> even the jew couldn't save that one
<Lore> Maybe we should put a penis in it.