I don't have time to think about it, so I'll just agree with wabe

<CCsLunchin> our IT department just hired someone named kelvin
<CCsLunchin> hope they gave him the third degree
<SeanQ> CC: relative of Dodge?
*** CCsLunchin has been kicked off channel #spinnwebe by Samwise (Fascinating... a pun with absolutely zero humor...)
<Lore> Aw, I liked it.
<zompist> that was might cold
<zompist> mighty
<Samwise> As did I. But that's teh only temperature pun I could think of.
<SeanQ> Kelvin Galileo Huntley
<agent_orange> Viper Maverick Huntley
<CCsLunchin> better yet, Copernicus Ptolemy Huntley
<agent_orange> Peloponessian Pi Huntley
<CCsLunchin> dodge would want ptolemy in there, since he thinks the universe revolves around him
<SeanQ> maybe he'll name the next one "Otis" and pray he invents a subtle elevator shoe
<CCsLunchin> and copernicus would be because that would be his son
<Lore> Oh.
<zompist> it's hard to look really phat in a foot-tall shoe
<Lore> "Absolutely zero humor" was, itself, a pun.
<SeanQ> damn Bob that is just horrible
<Lore> Dodge's son is named Edison Wright.
*** Samwise has been kicked off channel #spinnwebe by Lore (Oh, please.)
*** CCsLunchin has been kicked off channel #spinnwebe by zompist (experience a revolution!)
* CCsLunchin tries orbits
<agent_orange> Reddy Kilowatt Calrissian Huntley
<Lore> Velocity Uba Sjoberg
<agent_orange> good god
<agent_orange> Velocity Sjoberg
<SeanQ> Peevee Enartee HUntley
<Samwise> geek.
<agent_orange> that's FUCKER
<agent_orange> that's pure poetry
<Lore> An old girlfriend and I had a joke that we were going to have a girl named Velocity Uba and a boy named Kitsch.
<SeanQ> droppin some thermodynamic humor on y'all
<agent_orange> how do you say your last fucking name again? Fanshaw?
<Samwise> SHOW berg
<Lore> The First Law of Thermodynamics: Don't talk about thermodynamics.
<SeanQ> glad to see my education finally get put to good use
<Lore> Maybe I could entice a creationist in here to explain how the Second Law of Thermodynamics disproves evolution.
<Samwise> creationist? In here?
<Lore> Mooooooo...
* CCsLunchin just read "why people believe weird things" and is prepared to school that creationist
<Lore> Well, that's where the "entice" comes in.
<Lore> CC; Where's that?
<agent_orange> look like the last five minutes of apocalypse now
<CCsLunchin> where's what?
<Lore> "Why people beleive weird things"
<Lore> Is it a book or an article or what?
<SeanQ> what is that second law again? "No pooftas?"
<CCsLunchin> oh, at bookstores
<Lore> Oh. Books are lame.
<CrazyClimber> dunno which is worse, reading them or writing them
<agent_orange> books? fag.
<Lore> (Except for THE BOOK OF RATINGS: Available in October at all fine bookstores near or relatively near you!)
<CrazyClimber> it was written by the editor of skeptic magazine. he used to be a fundie, so he has this stuff down.
<agent_orange> And in November in the Bargain Racks at the very same stores!
<CrazyClimber> in december, in better supermarket racks everywhere!
<SeanQ> and in December in the trunk of lore's car!
<zompist> sounds familiar-- i must have checked that book out once.
<CrazyClimber> zomp - yeah, the hardcover came out a few years ago
<agent_orange> Coming Soon to your dentist's waiting room
<Lore> Christ, Fundie to editor of Skeptic Magazine. Talk about whiplash.
<CrazyClimber> you'd think more people would doubt that story.
<SeanQ> i think i have that book too, haven't gotten around to reading it
<SeanQ> though I recall the title as more like "Why smart people believe stupid things"
<zompist> eh. there's all kinds of fundies. some of 'em are intellectuals.
<agent_orange> okay
<agent_orange> sure
<agent_orange> some can turn into foxes at night too
<zompist> you're either too hard on fundies or too easy on intellectuals
<agent_orange> I'm hard on both
<zompist> you can be smart and still convince yourself of idiocies. look at all those people last century who thought stalin was hot shit.
<agent_orange> I think true intellecturals are as rare as flawless emeralds, and fundies by definition have walled over parts of their brains
<Lore> smart != intellectual
<zompist> probably everyone has walled over part of their brain.
<Lore> Not me.
* CrazyClimber glances toward minnesota
<Lore> I use barbed wire and doberman pinschers.
<Lore> And guards in long gray wool coats and repeating rifles.
<agent_orange> to tell you the truth, I have trouble with terms like "Catholic / Muslim / whatever scholar", too
<zompist> and what's that trouble, agto?
<agent_orange> mutually exclusive terms
<Lore> It's always fun when a thought tries to escape and ends up bleeding to death right outside the perimeter.
<Craig> good lesson to the other thoughts, though
<Lore> That's right!
<Lore> You should see what happens to the thoughts that get caught plotting.
<CrazyClimber> well, you can be a scholar of superman, too, as long as you distinguish whether it's pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths or post-Crisis
<Kyol> Nah, so long as they're hoest about being catholic/muslim scholars - i.e. they're learning about their religion and whatnot.
<Lore> Yeah, I think of scholar as meaning "schooled person."
<Lore> Certainly it would strike me as silly to say there are no Jewish scholars.
<Lore> A lot of them rabbis is fucking SCHOOLED.
<CrazyClimber> main difference is that superman's probably had fewer writers than most religious texts
<agent_orange> well, my (extreme) position is that once you establish your belief in an article of pure faith, your "intellectual" activity on its behalf is dishonest
<zompist> agto: what do you think of someone like garry wills?
<agent_orange> zomp: I think he's pretty much a philistine, although an articulate one
<Lore> Well, leaving that question aside, I guess I don't distinguish, in the word "scholar," between 'honest' scholars and 'dishonest' scholars.
<Lore> It reminds me, oddly enough, of Christians trying to defend Christianity by saying that Falwell, Baker, et. al. aren't "real" Christians.
<Lore> "Real" Christians don't do bad things, ergo anyone who does bad things isn't really a Christian.
<agent_orange> readinf descartes many years ago, ran across his "wekk, of course, we must start with the fact that god exists" line, and thought, you dork
<Samwise> Lore: strange.
<zompist> it sounds like an anti-religious bias to me
<agent_orange> Lore: yeah, it's not so much intellectual exploration as it is rationalization, which is what I reject
<agent_orange> I think all of Catholicism is rationalization
<SeanQ> adn God Bless You for that opinion
<Samwise> Odd that it seems so irrational.
* CrazyClimber considers atheists to be god's gift to philosophy
<Samwise> * CrazyClimber 's head explodes
<Lore> Hrmph.
<Lore> I started typing something up, but I realized that I'm not up for the lengthy definition of terms that this discussion would require.
<zompist> i think everyone should be an atheist at least once... don't think they should remain that way tho'
<Samwise> howabout agnostic?
<CrazyClimber> i've always been happy as one.
<agent_orange> I think that an intellectual/philosophical search for truth can END at God
<agent_orange> but when it starts there, it's a joke
<SeanQ> I like waffles
<agent_orange> I don't know what I am
<Lore> I think scholars can be searching for knowledge, which is different from searching for truth.
<zompist> i agree with that, agto
<Craig> my cat's breath smells like cat food
<agent_orange> I don't think humans can know or comprrehand god in any fashion
<Lore> Fag.
<CrazyClimber> bing! agnostic.
<zompist> but didn't descartes think he *had* a proof for the existence of god, even if it was one philosophers just chuckle at now?
<agent_orange> if he did, I never read it
<Samwise> agt: right. Even if God wanted to tell us all about himself, it'd be like you explaining your use of hyperbole and satire to a hamster
<agent_orange> Sam:zactly
<zompist> well, he was much better at grids
<Samwise> zomp: he had one, but it has one helluva big leap in it
<agent_orange> he's probably standing in front of me, waving his arms
<zompist> and wells
<zompist> the cartesian well
<SeanQ> I hope you'd have the courtesy of removing the hamster from your rectum first
<CrazyClimber> he'd have to move his own head first, sean
<Samwise> The leap is from "I exist, and am a thinking thing. I can envision a perfect thinking thing. I must have received this notion of a perfect thinking thing from somewhere, ergo, there is a perfect thinking thing."
<agent_orange> "Whatta you mean you can't hear me? ...oh, sorry." <pop!>
<SeanQ> sounds like Son of Sam
<Lore> Is this the same "proof" that says that God is perfect, and a thing can't be perfect without existing, therefore God exists?
<zompist> sam: yah, it's not exactly convincing if you're not predisposed to accept the idea of god
<agent_orange> true communication takes plae between intellectual equals or from a lower intellect to a higher (the dog is hungry).
<agent_orange> to know what god wants of us means we are at his level
<agent_orange> never made sense to me
<SeanQ> "I must kill the neighbors and bury them in the basement. I can envision my dog watching this, therefore I must have received this notion from Him.."
<Samwise> Lore: don't recall all that much. When I took philosophy, my main point was to learn enough to poke holes in it. Got me staight a's in every course.
<Lore> I prefer the "A watch implies a staff meeting" theory.
<zompist> and you can always poke holes in philosophy! that's what it's for!
<Lore> This holds that the existence of the universe proves that there must be a cosmic task force that specced it.
<agent_orange> if you couldn't...
<CrazyClimber> it's the swiss cheese of disciplines
<agent_orange> it would be a religion!
<Samwise> zomp: yeah, but it saved me a lot of time, since I didn't need to be well-versed to get the grade, just critical.
<agent_orange> same as here!
<Samwise> Which is probably the best thing you can get from such a class, anyway.
<Lore> And that, therefore, somewhere there is an extradimensional box of leftover doughnuts from their meetings.
<agent_orange> other than laid
<Samwise> agt: I've seen the chicks is philosophy. No thanks.
<SeanQ> who's talking about chicks?
<agent_orange> hey, there's some top-quality educated pussy out there
<Samwise> *shudder*
<zompist> eh, critical thinking is better to learn than knowing how to cite philosophers
<Lore> Many people feel that the highest calling of mankind is to find that box of doughnuts. Others feel that by now there's probably nothing left but some cake doughnuts and a half-eaten maple bar.
<Lore> </douglasadams quality="second-rate">
<agent_orange> are you on the fucking speed again, Lore?
<SeanQ> he's trying to avoid defining his terms
* zompist wonders if it's possible, by reason and critical thinking alone, to make a case for reason and critical thinking
<Lore> It's always POSSIBLE to make a case.
* CrazyClimber proposes as a syllogism that 1) philosophers drink coffee 2) cake doughnuts dunk well in coffee 3) therefore philosophers like cake doughnuts better
* Samwise wonders if it's possible to prove that induction is a valid proof, using anything *but* induction
<Lore> And, given the lack of a cosmic correct-o-tron, the only issue is how many people you convince.
<zompist> eeg, what a vulgar standard of proof
<agent_orange> I still think the zen buddhists had it right
<Lore> But the only measurable one.
* Samwise passes out berets and black turtlenecks
<agent_orange> your only hope is to stop thinking
<zompist> oh, *that's* wrong. you could measure lots of things. number of publications, for instance.
<Lore> "I can solve that conundrum in...EIGHT THOUGHTS!"
<Lore> That's just a subcategory of how many people you've convinced.
<agent_orange> giant swelling cranium circumference
<Lore> "How many editors you've convinced."
<agent_orange> that's sub-people
<zompist> agto: weren't you complaining a moment ago that the fundies weren't thinking? so, they've achieved zen
<Lore> Zen Bigots
<zompist> you can self-publish...
<agent_orange> not exactly
<Samwise> Heh. Fundamentalist Zen Buddhists.
<agent_orange> fundies refuse to think
<agent_orange> they let their thinking be done for them by a little leather bound book
* CrazyClimber waves to agt's grandfather the chimpanzee
<Samwise> agent: not even that... by what one man told them the little book really means
<zompist> come now. it takes some awfully clever thinking sometimes.
<agent_orange> there's a difference between a quiet mind and one that's been beaten into a coma
<SeanQ> about 18-24 years depending on good behavior
<zompist> sam is closer... but that guy who told them what the book means, he had to be a fundie scholar.
<agent_orange> I'm getting all agitatedish
<CrazyClimber> had to be?
<CrazyClimber> how do you figure that?
<zompist> 'cos i've met them, bob
<Leth> zomp: not necessarily. A lot of that is purely based off of traditional "views" that the justifications for are often lost in obscurity
<SeanQ> it could've been some guy on a streetcorner
<Leth> a lot of Biblical scholars are not that at all, but rather regurgitators of mysterious doctrines
<zompist> leth: in a sense yeah. but they'll cheerfully invent new justifications.
<CrazyClimber> all it had to be was someone that person believed -- didn't have to be a scholar at all
<Leth> sure, but that doesn't make 'em a scholar. It makes em a bullshit artist
<Lore> That reminds me of an argument I've always wanted to use on a Fundamentalist.
<zompist> you're assuming there's a difference
<agent_orange> that's phonetic scholarship
<Lore> But I know it wouldn't work, because nothing does.
<Leth> heh, point
<zompist> what's your argument, lore?
<Lore> "Different people believe the Bible means different things. Therefore, even if the Bible is the Word of God, the INTERPRETATION of the Bible is subject to the fallible mind of man. Thus, I can refute your arguments without refuting your axiomatic belief that the Bible is the word of God."
<Lore> Something like that. I haven't thought about it in years.
<Lore> The idea was to skip past the "Well, I believe in the Bible and that's that" portion of the discussion.
<SeanQ> unless its the Pope that gives the interpertation, because he is God's representative on earth
<SeanQ> or, presumably, unless the Pope agrees with it
<agent_orange> I ran across a definition of a fundie as someone who believes the rule of the Bible more than the word of God
<agent_orange> the Book is what leads themn
<Leth> yeah, but the argument that there is but one true translation, and it was guided directly by God is the only thing they can cling to. And cling they will
<Leth> agt: Certain rules of the Bible, is what I had read once
<Lore> Anyhow, I stand by the statment that scholars seek knowledge, not necessarily truth. Thus, even if you start from the inarguable axiom that you were created by fairies named Peaseblossom and Anges, you can be a scholar of Peaseblossom and Anges.
<SeanQ> lore: they also assume that whomever wrote it down inthe first place, or translated it from the original ancient Hebrew, didn't screw anything up
<agent_orange> Leth: well, sure
<agent_orange> herd to keep up with all that gibber jabber
<agent_orange> just pick the ones you like and go from there
<Lore> Leth: Right. I mean, I could argue that point with YOU ("But it's a fallible human mind that determines which is the true translation/interpretation") but I sincerely doubt I could convince fundie one.
<Leth> well, it was the key to the essay I was reading, because it was showing that fundies don't really follow the Bible, but rather only parts that suit their purpose, defeating the entire logic
<Lore> Yeah, but I imagine from the Fundies' perspective, not only are they following the Bible, they're following the WHOLE Bible, and the Bible has no contradictions. That's going to be nonsense to you and me, but try telling them that.
<Leth> while they eat a pork chop
<zompist> sometimes, they know the problems better than you, and have answers to them.
<zompist> otoh, it's a lot of fun to point out stuff from the bible they don't know
* zompist has provoked at least one religious crisis
<Lore> Really? In whom?
<Lore> And, perhaps more importantly, how long did it last?
<zompist> eh, she got over it
<SeanQ> like Abraham had another son named Kenedy, and John baptised a villager named Lincoln!
<Lore> Yeah, that's the tricky bit.
<Lore> I mean, a Creationist could probably stump me pretty easily.
<agent_orange> not unless he had an axe
<Lore> "How come a skeleton of so-called Urbana Man was found in strata from the Precambrian in 1987? Huh? Huh?"
<Leth> it's hard to argue facts, though, with someone who can legitimately pull explanations out of their ass, the the whole "It wasn't wine, it was really really good grape juice"
<Lore> I dunno, I don't follow archaeology.
<agent_orange> cb for theosophical agitprop
<jeeb> out walking your limp little dicks i see
<zompist> lore: it's not that hard to outfox 'em, but it takes a little work... e.g. read the talk.origins faq
<Lore> But I don't doubt that the actual explanation is not "Because God created the world in seven days."
<Lore> Oh, I've read the talk.origins faq.
<Leth> "It had to be seven days, because it was the word of God, and he does not speak in allegories and metaphors." "Excpet the Parables." "Righ- ACK!"
<Lore> But unless the C'tionist in question is kind enough to ask a question from the faq and give me a second to refresh my memory, I'm not always going to remember the answer.
<zompist> see, my problem with fundies is not that they aren't scholarly. they come from the tradition that invented scholarship.
<zompist> it's that they lack critical thinking about their own beliefs.
<Leth> not lack
<Leth> refuse to allow
<CrazyClimber> i come from the tradition that invented drinking beer while bowling, that doesn't make me good at either
<agent_orange> which, to me, means they aren't scholarly
<Lore> Plus, I'd hate to give the WRONG answer. I don't see any purpose in fighting falsehoods with falsehoods. And my memory for trivia and phrases is great, but my memory for actual knowledge isn't.
<Lore> Hm.
<agent_orange> lore: then you need to be a rabbi!
<Leth> yeah, I'm with agt. I consider a scholar someone who studies several viewpoints, and forms critical reasoning about their thesis
<zompist> there's very few scholars then
<Lore> Would a "hard athiest," one who believes that a lack of proof for god is proof for a lack of god, and who is firmly settled on that point, count as a scholar in your book, Agto?
<Leth> thus my seperating them from the bullshit artist
<Leth> I'm not arguing that point at all, zomp
<Lore> I really think you guys are co-opting the term to mean something other than its common meaning.
* CrazyClimber isn't hard yet
<agent_orange> Lore: no
<zompist> fundies are an easy target, because their wall-of-no-examination is so obvious and (to us) bizarre
<agent_orange> Zomp: that's right. damn few
<Lore> I think you guys have a point, but the terminology is iffy.
<zompist> i think most people have that wall *somewhere*.
<agent_orange> that "hard athiest" would have to deal with the validity of the questions that religion treis to answer and do some exploring himself
<zompist> most of you guys seem pretty ready to believe that no one smart can be religious-- i think that's a wall right there
<agent_orange> saying "That ani't it" doesn't answer the question
<Lore> Yeah, I'm with Zomp on this. We all have axioms. Hell, I think a lot of them are coming up in this discussion.
<agent_orange> I think no one smart can be fundamentalist
<Lore> Ah, okay.
<Lore> I think I'm seeing the theme here.
<zompist> i think they can-- i've met some.
<CrazyClimber> zomp: as an atheist, i'm religious, so i can't be suggesting that.
<Lore> "smart" "scholar" "intellectual" can't refer to fundies.
<agent_orange> life is too complex for any kind of "fundamental" to hold water
<CrazyClimber> atheism is an article of faith, after all.
<zompist> i mean jeez, thinking of fundies as idiots in bad clothes and trailer parks is fine for the dfc or a #sw riff, but don't make yourself stupid by applying to everyone
<SeanQ> waffles......mmmmmmmm...... love them waffles
<Lore> Do you have alternative terms for a fundamentalist with mental characteristics that are usually described as "smart"? (High I.Q., excellent memory, vast knowledge of several subjects, &.c &c.)
<Lore> Or a fundamentalist who has devoted his life to the acquisition of knowledge?
<agent_orange> you know, you can talk about "fundamentalism" as a concept or you can look at real fundamentalists and then ask yourself: are these people intellectually honest? Have they thought about their beliefs critcally?
<Lore> This is starting to sound like newspeak to me.
<agent_orange> can they listen to and appreciate arguments?
<CrazyClimber> lore: you have to distinguish between knowledge and belief.
<zompist> agto, have you ever been religious yourself?
<agent_orange> not really
<Lore> CC: I am, in fact, making that distinction. It seems like agto is the one who's saying that if you have too much of the latter you can't have the former.
<agent_orange> no
<agent_orange> that's NOT what I'm saying
<agent_orange> I'm saying that you can take two paths: searching for truth be attempting to answer questions of faith or whatever
<agent_orange> or assuming that al of those questions have been answered and setteling your lame ass into that belief and turning the lights off
<Lore> What I'm saying is that you meet some guy. Maybe in #spinnwebe. He talks about a lot of subjects in a knowledgable way. He seems to have a lot of insight and ability to understand complex issues. So on and so forth. You think "hey, this guy is smart."
<Lore> Then, he reveals that he's a fundamentalist. What is he instead of "smart"?
<zompist> some people take path #2, agto, but plenty of fundies get there after some sort of search
<CrazyClimber> a search that leads to a wrong answer is a wasted search.
<zompist> really?
<agent_orange> no
<raven> or an incomplete one.
<CrazyClimber> well, yeah, ok, if they back up and start over.
<agent_orange> searches for truth don't end
<Lore> I think the property of intelligence is orthogonal to the property of faith.
<CrazyClimber> s/leads to a/leads to the acceptance of a/
<zompist> copernicus thought orbits were circular... was that a waste?
<Lore> You can have dumb searchers and smart believers.
<CrazyClimber> zomp: leave dodge's kid out of this
<zompist> some sort of search for truth should always go on, but why stay in existential doubt all your life?
<Lore> I mean, hell, you're pretty much arguing that most of Western Civilization's great scholars and intellectuals (especially before the 1900s) were neither scholars or intellectuals.
<zompist> eventually you start to form some conclusions that you're probably not going to change
<agent_orange> why not wear the one-size fit's all DaddyThought of fundamentalism
<Lore> When someone starts redefining common terms based on a litmus test, alarm bells go off in my head.
<agent_orange> fundamentalism in action isn't about religion, or truth, or even belief
<agent_orange> it's about control
<Lore> And, in fact, that the aforementioned scholars and intellectuals weren't even "smart."
<agent_orange> MOST religion is ultimately about control, when you look at how it plays out in real life
<zompist> so are lots of things
<agent_orange> and fundies are about tight control
<zompist> even liberalism
<agent_orange> so what?
<zompist> i'm a liberal, but i recognize that a lot of liberals are very comfortable trying to tell others what to do
<zompist> so, it's not that damning to fundamentalism. many human beings are very controlling people.
<Leth> no we're not
<Leth> shut up
<agent_orange> so your argument is that since there are other control mechanisms, the opressive ones shouldn't be criticized?
<zompist> oh come on, agto
<Lore> I thought this was about description, not criticism.
<zompist> don't play with straw men.
<agent_orange> then explain " it's not that damning to fundamentalism. many human beings are very controlling people." because I'm not getting the point
<zompist> well, you explain why you brought up their controlling nature.
<SeanQ> personally, I think agent_orange is rubber and zompist is glue
<agent_orange> becuase they claim to have the revealed truth of god: this is what humans are to do and be
<SeanQ> however, I think zomp's dad can lick agto's dad
<zompist> eeewwww
<zompist> my dad doesn't go that way
<agent_orange> it negates the possibility and usefulness of any search
<agent_orange> and thus, in my mind, closes off an avenue of human potential
<zompist> well, what do you want? to keep searching for the answer at 80?
<agent_orange> yes
<agent_orange> exactly
* CrazyClimber wishes he was gonna reach 80
<zompist> i'll wager you that 70% of your beliefs will still be there at that age.
<Lore> What is it, Bob? The smoking or the Parkinson's?
<Craig> STDs
<agent_orange> because, like I said when this started, I don't think we canEVER know god
<agent_orange> and so the search is as close as we're gonna get
<CrazyClimber> craig, i wish there were a chance that could be true, too
<Leth> see, I'm of the mind that "knowing God" is impossible, it's a self-negating idea
<CrazyClimber> ... carnally?
<Craig> maybe you should get out more, go to bars where God hangs out, maybe some parties.
<Leth> thanks Bob!
<CrazyClimber> i'm there for my friends
<zompist> you can believe in god and also believe that he's unknowable
<zompist> fwiw
<CrazyClimber> or she
<Leth> oh sure, that's my point. It's key to the whole faith in God system
<agent_orange> my vagina itches
<Kyol> Man, a good steak, a couple of potatoes, some cookies, a beer, and a _really_ good shit, I'm rarin' for the afternoon.
<Leth> fag
<Craig> thick as a doorknob, was it?
<agent_orange> lets continue this discussion outside over cudgels and King Cobra
<CrazyClimber> i guess i'm a hard enough atheist, in lore's terms, to wonder why people would believe in god enough to follow that avenue in search of truth, since there couldn't possibly be any
<CrazyClimber> oops
<zompist> how do you know?
<CrazyClimber> like i said before. article of faith.
<zompist> so you've closed off your mind and severely disappointed agto
<Lore> Well, there goes any chance of you being smart, CC.
<CrazyClimber> not the first time, not the last, zomp
<agent_orange> as long as his ass stays open
<Leth> so does that mean Bob's a fundamentalist atheist?
<CrazyClimber> lore, i'd rather be right than smart
<Lore> Heh.
<wabewalkr> I like that term.
<raven> just because you aren't searching, does that mean you'd close your mind to proofs?
* raven jumps in late.
<agent_orange> ALL I meant was that the paths taken by fundamentalist belief and thosev take by intellectual scholarship are and MUST be exclusive
<agent_orange> I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition. Well, I did, really.
<ristoril> don't you oppress me
<CrazyClimber> rave - no, but i'm familiar enough with the proofs people have come up with over the last two millennia
<wabewalkr> "We will all worship nobody / yes, we all will worship nobody / because nobody isn't somebody / and that's good enough for me!"
<zompist> well, there is no such thing as intellectual scholarship, then
<Leth> AND the cinnamon swirl cakes at Dunkin can ONLY be eaten with Hazelnut coffee
<CrazyClimber> so i'm skeptical that there'd be something new that would make me reconsider
<agent_orange> zomp: <spit take> what?!?
<raven> I don't go on intellectual quests to prove fairies, but if someone came up with fairy proof, I'd evaluate it and then incorporate it.
<Craig> You mean more than hock?
<CrazyClimber> i think boi made us all reconsider
<zompist> agto: there's always got to be something you accept without question. such as, the value of intellectual scholarship.
<wabewalkr> The problem with "proofs" is that we don't have a well-defined and agreed-upon set of axioms.
<Leth> s/reconsider/scrape out our brains with trowels/
<agent_orange> lets quit saying intellectual and start saying secular and see how this shit shakes ou, how about that
<Lore> Uh.
<raven> I have no need to go questing for gods. But I'm not so 'fundie athiest' that I'd disregard new proofs without due consideration and examination.
<Kyol> Y'all athiests have it too hard. 's why I'm agnostic. mmm.
<Kyol> *glug glug*
<CrazyClimber> well, yeah, like i say. new proofs don't come along often.
<Lore> I'm an animist.
<ristoril> Kyol: I have to agree, agnostic is the way to go
<Leth> agnostic != chokes on dick, Kyol
<ristoril> although i'm not 100% sure on that one
<Leth> so no sound effects needed
<CrazyClimber> "atheist" is a bad word, anyway. it should be "adeist."
<agent_orange> yeah, well. I accept the vaule of intelect, as it makes me more than a muffin. I accept the value of searching for/ trying to prove the existance of god. I don't accept saying, "It's all been done for us, here in this book, and if you don't get in line its the fucking sword for you."
<wabewalkr> The problem with agnosticism is that it pisses off EVERYBODY.
<zompist> i don't disagree with that, agto
<zompist> i think fundies are extremely dangerous
<agent_orange> well, then, I still love you, you tall drink of over-educated water
<wabewalkr> Well, any mindless following is dangerous.
<wabewalkr> Whether it be religious, political, or even scientific.
<agent_orange> YES I AGREE
<SeanQ> I don't have time to think aboutit, so I'll just agree with wabe
<Craig> I do whatever Sean tells me to do, so ditto.
* Craig looks to Sean.
<wabewalkr> Now, my loyal followers, go purge the evil free-thinkers from this world. Bwahahahahaha!
<Kyol> Well, mindless cynicism is pretty fucking annoying, too.
*** wabewalkr has been kicked off channel #spinnwebe by SeanQ (reverse alphabetical order okay?)
<agent_orange> BLASPHEMERS WE ALL FOLLOW THE SPINN
<Craig> hail tha spinn!!
<wabewalkr> Cake or death?